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04-Oct-01 13:11
Hey Matt & Simon,

Not that I think you guys don't have enough on your plate as it is, but... How about a sixth forum devoted to the business of web site design? We fledgling designers could discuss such things as dealing with clients, setting prices, business ethics, site promotion, new services to offer, etc. I know that I have several questions I would like to post. And perhaps from time to time we could even get some advice from the masters?

Bob
05-Oct-01 03:56
Bob,

I dunno how it is across the pond in the UK, but here in the US, that is a legal minefield. It is technically not legal for two independent consultants (designers, what-have-you) to get together and discuss their prices, billing, etc. It can be (and has been) construed as price-fixing. Since this group is international in scope, it would take an eternally vigilant forum monitor as well as someone familiar with the law. But Yanks, at least, could get into trouble participating.

Here is a very good link to a U.S. attorney who has done a great deal of work on the subject of the Internet. He makes a lot of his research available to his site visitors:

http://www.ivanhoffman.com/index.html

I hope that will be of some interest.

Anne
05-Oct-01 13:50
Thank you Anne.

Actually I'm not across the pond; I'm sitting here surrounded by five great mud puddles. The legal aspects had not occurred to me. I'm a tyro at being in business. I am retiring this year after four decades in the classroom and looking for a way to use my very limited computer skills to suppliment a rather meager teacher's pension. I have so much to learn and thought this might be a good way to go about it. But I see your point about the need for careful and informed monitoring, and Matt and Simon are already being most generous with their time and expertise.

I have bookmarked Mr. Hoffman's site and imagine I will be returning there often.

Thanks again.

Bob
05-Oct-01 18:28
Hi all,

I like that as an idea. It's a much neglected area. I'm beginning to see why *lol* I had no idea about that Anne.

Maybe we could do so long as we don't talk prices? There's certainly scope for discussing pitching, client relations, brief creep, ethics etc.

In the end that sort of discussion can only benefit all our clients.

hmmmm

Simon
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05-Oct-01 18:58
I think it would be great if you guys are willing to take it on. It will be interesting to see what the other forum users think.

Bob

"brief creep"?!?!?!?! Does that have anything to do with underwear sizes?

[Edited by rgras on 05-Oct-01 19:01]
05-Oct-01 22:45
LOL@thebriefjoke.

Can I have permission to use it?

Dan
06-Oct-01 01:00
Simon,

I'm with you!! I think as long as money doesn't crop up in the disucssion, we should be fine.

Brief creep? I love it! I've always referred to it as "scope creep," and it's a huge problem for me. I think I like brief creep better!

If you set up such a forum, I'll be a willing and frequent visitor.

Anne

06-Oct-01 05:51
Dan,

Sure, as long as I get 40% and a link on your front page. Just kidding -- feel free.

"Scope creep," Anne?!? Mouthwash??? What are you guys talking about? Surely jargon would be a part of this new forum.

Bob
06-Oct-01 13:49
I've been thinking about adding a slang dictionary to my site so anymore suggestions would be great.

Dan
06-Oct-01 16:38
Ahh, the dreaded scope creep. (Actually I kind of like "brief creep." At the risk of saying the wrong thing, it sounds a little like getting a wedgie, and the actual situation is just about that uncomfortable... ;} }

It's a function of project management and cost containment vs. giving excellent service.

Let's say I am a premiere Web designer, and you have engaged me to design a site for your company. We have taken care of all of the preliminary discovery. I have presented you with a document (in my own case, it would be a statement of work) including detailed specifics on the number of pages, what is to be included (forms, Flash design, photographs, maybe an e-commerce interface, whatever). I have also provided you with an accurate, good-faith estimate of the number of hours it will take to complete this work. You, the customer, have signed off on this, so we have a legal agreement--a contract for the work. You are aware of, and have agreed to, the fact that the hours section is an estimate only, and that you will be billed for the actual hours worked. You've made a deposit.

Now we are into it. I have created the actual design and layout of the pages, and you like and approve of it. (If I'm smart, I'll present this to you and get you to sign a memorandum of approval--a sign-off). Things are rolling merrily along, when you call me up one day. "Gee, Anne, the site design is looking great. But I've been thinking... I'd really like to have a Flash intro for the site. Something achingly trendy."

This should trigger an alarm. It is a change in the scope of the contract. It's going to take me several hours to develop that screen, and there will need to be modifications to the rest of the pages as well. As the designer, I'm now squarely in a dilemma. I want to give the best possible service. I want referrals and repeat business. But I also need to eat.

How to handle it? I should immediately say, "That's a great idea, Mr. Client. It'll probably take me eight additional hours to get that done for you. I'll just write up a change order and get it to you for your approval, and then we can get right to work on it."

In practice, this is easier said than done. If I haven't prepared you for change control, you're apt to throw a fit. There's a bit of risk. Maybe you'll get angry and stop the work and tell all your associates I'm a gouging, mercenary creep. Maybe I'll back down and decide to inclue the work in the original price, thereby losing eight perfectly good, billable hours. Ugh.

The best way to handle it is from the very beginning. Be frank and open about change control in your discussions, and include a paragraph covering it in your statement of work. Include checkpoints in the work--natural stopping places where the client will have opportunity for review and approval. Build time in for those necessary, legitimate revisions that will be inevitable. Report to your client on your progress as you go along.

Having done all that, a change in scope doesn't have to be quite as scary. The other lesson to be learned out of this is never to work without a written agreement.

I'm certain there are other approaches to this. I've been a network engineer for twenty years, a Web designer for less than a year. So most of what I've written here is based on that other consultancy. But I think it translates pretty well, and it's done OK for me so far.

Hope this answer isn't too long-winded!!

Anne






06-Oct-01 17:12
Anne,

Not at all too long-winded. In fact I just copied it to my note pad for future referral. I said I have a lot to learn, but then I've always been good at understatement.

Thank you. This is just exactly the sort of thing the new forum could facilitate.

Bob
06-Oct-01 22:46
I'm glad you found it helpful. I guess its object lesson is to develop a standard contract and stick to it.

Anne
08-Oct-01 14:37
That's eaxctly it, Anne. We have the same problems. It's usually lots of little things I find, rather than something big, but it all adds up. I find that sometimes it's best to lose small battles to avoid losing the war. Pick your battles is a good plan I think!

We have a standard T&C which in part relates to this and we ask every client to be aware of it before we even set mouse to mousemat!

Simon
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08-Oct-01 17:12
eaxctly? Not another new word shorly?

*lol*

Dan
08-Oct-01 17:21
I had a manager who used to say "Is it a hill you're willing to die on?" So picking those battles is a Good Thing.

The other thing I have never understood is this: If I hire a contractor to rebuild a bathroom, say, and partway through the work I decide that I want a different style of sink that's not only more expensive but more difficult to install, he won't have any qualms about writing a change order. And I won't think twice about signing it without a fuss. Lawyers are another group that's very open and concrete about their billing practices.

In anything to do with computers, it's somehow more subtle, more shifting. It shouldn't be, but there you go.

Anne
15-Oct-01 11:56
I think in a way it's because it's a young industry and the industry hasn't established a consistent billing method yet.

This means that clients are often surprised by billing styles which makes the whole thing very uncertain. In turn this means we're a but uncertain about what to do. An uncertain client is one much less likely to pay..

Simon
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16-Oct-01 04:38
Well, I'm involved in an enormous attack of scope creep now, and I have no idea what to do about it!!

I created a site with photo album for a fixed price (which was paid promptly!!), to include two hours' training on how to update the album, billed at normal hourly rates.

The idea was that the album's not difficult and that the owner's son could update it on a periodic basis. Well, sir.

He is a great kid--a college student--diligent, courteous, and very hard working. Goes to school, is a volunteer fire fighter, works in his Dad's business, etc. He's in process of enlisting in the Marines, for cripe's sake! But he is not the sharpest knife in the drawer. I've probably trebled the amount of time spent coaching him. And all to do an activity that I could've finished and uploaded in fifteen minutes, quite literally.

Problem is, I have this not-so-subtle impression that his Dad is hard on him for his lack of brilliance. He's under a lot of pressure to get this done. That, of course, brings out the old killer maternal instinct to help out the underdog kid. If he were an obnoxious little twit, I'd have no problems in setting things straight. But he's so infernally nice!!

So I'm swallowing several billable hours under the guise of doing my good deed, and laboring under the assumption that they don't teach Web design at boot camp.

Sheesh!
Anne

17-Oct-01 02:14
I sure wish this dialogue had been going a couple of months ago. I just finished two gorgeous (in my humble opinion) sites for my first client, but I made the mistake of not talking price until after I had done the work. Now that we have talked price, I don't seem to get an answer to my emails, and the two sites are parked unused.

So, Matt & Simon, what do you think? Is the new forum a possibility?

Bob
17-Oct-01 14:18
Oh dear,

Anne. That's very cute. Is he in any danger of getting it? What happens when he's off sloshing through the crabflats on marine training? Will the dad do it?

Bob, that's a trauma, and a lesson learnt the hard way! If the client didn't know they were paying, then there's no way they're going to pay up when finding out at the end of the job.

Nasty....

The forum. We're a bit worried that the takeup won't be there for it and it's so far behind the other forums that it'll look silly with like, 30 posts in it. It's also a wee bit more specialised than the other forums so traffic to it would be less.

That said, I think it's a nice idea. I think for now, keep it to design and graphics (which appears to have turned into a bit of an overall forum anyway) and maybe we'll look at it again soon.

Deal?

Simon
ELATED : )

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19-Oct-01 02:59
Simon,

I understand your reservations. You guys are already doing a hell of a service with the 5 forums presently offered. I know they have been invaluable to me, and I'm sure others will echo that sentiment.

Thank you for considering my suggestion, and thank you for giving us all a chance to share with each other.

Bob

PS: The client knew from the start that he would have to pay, but I think he had a (very) minimum wage in mind. Oh well, experience is a great teacher, even if her bill is a bit steep at times.

 
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